You’re showing how Zenz’ estimations are baseless, and RationalWiki is wrong.

How?

Zenz invented numbers pulled from thin air from a tiny sample size.

Do you not know how to read? I literally gave an answer for this at the very start of my previous response.

You aren’t highlighting how the Grayzone is wrong…

I am though. Is “nuh uh” the best you’ve got?

…you’re proving RationalWiki’s problem with statistics and estimation, and highlighting your own willingness to overlook critical flaws in data analysis…

How? Expand on these baseless statements maybe? It’s also really funny how you’ve essentially turned this into a RationalWiki vs Grayzone argument.

…just to serve your own right-wing political ends.

I thought I was a post-left anarchist. But if you say so I guess.

Secondly, the top result article for “Uyghur genocide” circles back to reports by Zenz for allegations of genocide, and people referencing Zenz.

Hmm I wonder why. Maybe because he is a researcher in this topic?

I can go on and on, the most credible report is the UN report that you refuse to look at, and China’s response to it thoroughly debunks or contextualizes everything brought up.

You must be trolling at this point. Do you want me to repeat myself for the 4th time?

The reason you should read the reports is so that you can understand what the actual allegations are, rather than listening to a far-right christofascist propagandist paid by the US government to discredit China and other left wing groups.

Yes, the left wing group of… China…

Uyghur population growth in Xinjiang exceeeds the average population growth in Xinjiang.

No, it doesn’t.

As for rationalwiki being liberal, they absolutley are. For example, they call Friedrich Engels the “dictator of writing” on their “notable communists” subsection of the communism page…

Have you ever heard of jokes?

They also call every socialist leader a “dictator,” and include Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge an example of “communism.”

It’s a wiki, go and discuss changing it if you have evidence against these claims.

These people are not serious, they are liberals that maintain the US government’s line on its enemies to a T.

Damn. This RationalWiki conspiracy goes deep huh? Why are you so mad at this singular source I cited?

This goes well with your support of a literal CIA propagandist, Adrian Zenz.

Damn.

I’ve moved no goalposts.

Except for the ones you did. Instead of engaging with my rebuttal against the claim that Zenz lied about IUD rates, you immediately switched to how Arab League countries found no wrongdoing. Then when I gave a rebuttal to that you immediately switched to how “Zenz claimed to have interviewed 8 Uyghur people and deduced that millions must be incarcerated”. And then when I gave my rebuttal to that you very obviously didn’t read it and switched to how I’m homophobic and far right, how RationalWiki is liberal, and how Zenz is a douchebag.

You keep defending and dodging Zenz’ clear biases and proven track record of lying, manipulating data, and belief that China is the anti-christ.

Are you okay? Hallucinating? I never defended or dodged those things. I gave rebuttals. I acknowledged that he’s biased, but also acknowledged that that singular reason doesn’t make his research untrustworthy. I debunked your claims about him lying and manipulating. And I really couldn’t give two shits about how evangelical he is. It is also weird how you’re so focused on this one researcher.

For example, Zenz showed a picture of elderly people recieving medical care at a clinic, and used it to boost his “forced sterilization” theory.

Did he now? Where’s the source?

This is what Zenz writes…

Okay.

Why on Earth do you complain about creationists as though they have nothing worthy to say, while simultaneously using a crank propagandist that believes homosexuality is a sin, and that the rapture is coming within decades?

I never complained about creationists, nor did I ever say they have nothing worthy to say. I just referenced how creationists tend to omit parts of texts that hurt their feelings.

He also downplays actual islamophobia…

Okay. Like you continuing to poison the well doesn’t prove his research or data wrong.

RationalWiki tries to claim it is a fallacy to look at Zenz’ views and methodology…

No they don’t. RationalWiki addressed criticisms made against Zenz’s methodology, and accurately identified how using what kind of person Zenz is against his research is an ad hominem. And not ad hominem in the insult sense.

However, this itself is a fallacy meant to stop the reader from seriously considering the validity of the information presented.

Oh yes, the Fallacy of Stopping the Reader from Seriously Considering the Validity of the Information Presented. Look, they even have a page for it 🤡.
They indeed point out how his beliefs call for significant scrutiny to his research:

And it’s really weird how you’re still so focused on this singular source I cited.

If known liars and cranks that manipulate data are to be treated the same as scientific analysis…

You still haven’t proven any of this. But keep repeating. Maybe it’ll become reality.

…including when groups like the Arab League find no evidence of genocide…

then you should certainly trust anti-imperialist reporting like from the Grayzone when it presents information clearly debunking RationalWiki and Adrian Zenz.

Yeah, the anti-imperialist reporting from… the pro-kremlin, antivax, anti-renewable Grayzone.

At this point I’m fully convinced that you’re a troll. If anybody isn’t, I feel sorry for them. Disengage.

And how did they deduce that? Maybe with the additional help of official Chinese government documents?:

The source for this is just reading what Zenz and co posted themselves. The Grayzone is just highlighting clear problems with how Zenz gathers data.

And I’m highlighting how they’re wrong.

As for sources on the Arab League visiting Xinjiang and finding no evidence of genocide, here’s Middle East Monitor reporting on it. I already linked this to you before, but this is an additional source just for fun. It’s really easy to find this online.

As for pretty much all major allegations of genocide leading back to Zenz, here’s an example from BBC, which merely reports what Zenz says with little commentary.

“This one article about Uighurs links back to Zenz so all articles link back to Zenz” do you even hear yourself?

Wierd bit of homophobia on your part at the end, but I can’t say I’m surprised by that behavior from you…

Sorry, where was I homophobic?

…but I can’t say I’m surprised by that behavior from you, given your defense of the far-right.

Where did I defend the far-right you fucking moron? Are you fantasizing arguing with an alter ego of mine?

You haven’t even looked at the reports, so there’s nothing here to argue yet…

This is the third time I’m saying this. You’ve not made a single point about anything in the reports YOU shared. What the fuck would me reading them change. Make an argument, cite it, then I’ll check. I’m not going to read 180 pages to debunk literally no argument.

…all we have found is that you believe far-right christofascist propagandist Adrian Zenz is infallible…

Where did I say that dipshit? Show me, where did I say that?

…and right-liberal RationalWiki…

Lol. Lmao even. “Everything I don’t like is liberal” to the nth degree. Well, they’re not though:

…is a reliable way to avoid engaging with a group that simply highlights Zenz’ background, methodology, and mistakes.

I’m directly engaging with the shit you keep spewing. I don’t want to type out paragraphs against worn-out arguments myself, that’s why I just send already existing rebuttals. You don’t want to engage with the rebuttals I send though, so you just keep moving the goalposts. Great job!

The reality reversal is fucking crazy. RationalWiki is the right-wing misinformation wiki now?

Note how none of the arguments presented by the Grayzone against Zenz are tackled, just how the Grayzone reports.

A lot of their arguments are debunked here instead.

Yes, Zenz isn’t the only one researching this! People like the Arab League went to Xinjiang and found no evidence of genocide. Instead, the groups that push the genocide narrative all circle back to Zenz, then reference each other. In this way, the narrative of genocide appears to have more legitimacy, despite all linking back to shoddy claims by an admitted professional propagandist.

Have any sources for that?

I find it telling that you’ll only listen to a christofascist, not the UN, and not the PRC’s official response and evidence. It’s the christofascists that deflect from Palestinian genocide that you trust completely, not hard evidence nor even the most official allegations by the UN. Truth doesn’t seem to matter to you, what matters is that christofascist propagandists are trusted. This is Iraq’s supposed WMD and South Africa’s supposed “White Genocide” all over again.

I literally said, if you want to argue with the information that is present in those in total 180 page documents feel free to do so. But I find it telling that you’ll ignore the stuff I say in order to defend daddy Xi at all costs instead. You’re actually a fucking joke.

The christofascist on a mission from God to punish China was thoroughly discredited by none other than…

Yeah. That’s who I trust. Maybe check your own sources before disparaging others’.

An example is lying about 8.7% of new IUDs as 80%, to back up claims of “forced sterilization,” from this chart…

Search engines exist, you know that right?:

https://adrianzenz.medium.com/a-response-to-the-report-compiled-by-lin-fangfei-associate-professor-at-xinjiang-university-bdad4bbb97f9

Trusting Zenz and data that comes exclusively from Zenz is not a reliable measure.
Instead of accusing others of the equivalent to creationism, why not instead question the actual christofascist you seem to have absolute faith in providing totally real evidence?

Tell me, where have I shown absolute faith in anybody in this thread? You keep talking about how Zenz is a far-right asshole. Do you not realize that Zenz is not the only person researching this?

If you want to cite arguments from the files you linked feel welcome to do so. But I’m not going to read 130 pages of China sucking itself off, nor am I going to read the 40 page UN report (at least right now) to debunk dumbfuck trolls on Lemmy.

And how did the birthrates drop? That’s something to omit. But don’t worry, I’ll tell you:

Leaked data obtained and corroborated by the AP showed that of 484 camp detainees listed in Karakax county in Xinjiang, 149 were there for having too many children - the most common reason for holding them. Time in a camp — what the government calls “education and training” — for parents with too many children is written policy in at least three counties, notices found by Zenz confirmed.

In 2017, the Xinjiang government also tripled the already hefty fines for violating family planning laws for even the poorest residents — to at least three times the annual disposable income of the county. While fines also apply to Han Chinese, only minorities are sent to the detention camps if they cannot pay, according to interviews and data. Government reports show the counties collect millions of dollars from the fines each year.

In other efforts to change the population balance of Xinjiang, China is dangling land, jobs and economic subsidies to lure Han migrants there. It is also aggressively promoting intermarriage between Han Chinese and Uighurs, with one couple telling the AP they were given money for housing and amenities like a washing machine, refrigerator and TV.

It links back to China’s long history of dabbling in eugenics….you don’t want people who are poorly educated, marginal minorities breeding quickly,” said James Leibold, a specialist in Chinese ethnic policy at La Trobe in Melbourne. “What you want is your educated Han to increase their birth rate.”

Sultan describes how the policy looks to Uighurs like her: “The Chinese government wants to control the Uighur population and make us fewer and fewer, until we disappear.”

Once in the detention camps, women are subjected to forced IUDs and what appear to be pregnancy prevention shots, according to former detainees. They are also made to attend lectures on how many children they should have.

Seven former detainees told the AP that they were force-fed birth control pills or injected with fluids, often with no explanation. Many felt dizzy, tired or ill, and women stopped getting their periods. After being released and leaving China, some went to get medical check-ups and found they were sterile.

It’s unclear what former detainees were injected with, but Xinjiang hospital slides obtained by the AP show that pregnancy prevention injections, sometimes with the hormonal medication Depo-Provera, are a common family planning measure. Side effects can include headaches and dizziness.
AP News - China cuts Uighur births with IUDs, abortion, sterilization

If you think that an organization with ties to the CIA wouldn’t do research about and uncover stuff that would benefit them, and would instead make up a global conspiracy based off of unproven misinterpretations of government records that can only be seen by genocide denier shitstain Riverside, then I don’t know what to tell you.

“But Adrian Zenz is far-right!” 🤡

Holy hell you’re like a fucking creationist. How funny that you just happened to omit the next few sentences:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Zenz#Criticism

The Sky News article you shared doesn’t shed your favorite country in the best light either. Maybe try reading it next time?

But go ahead, keep disseminating CIA-fabricated lies about China while the US supports the genocide of Palestinians and literally INVADES AND BOMBS IRAN, you’re incredibly moral and leftist buddy

So because I criticize China, I suddenly am on the US’s team and can’t criticize them anymore? Is that how this works dipshit?

We literally have leaked internal files of the genocide yet you’re here acting like the only “source” we have is just a couple of news stations that you don’t like.

Get your head out of your ass just for a couple of moments you disgusting fucking creature.

Fluxer is not federated though. If you plan on only interacting with your friends who were willing to join your instance that’s an alright solution, but if you want to interact with other people on other servers then you’re going to need to use their main instance.

Screen sharing support has been added to Stoat but it’s disabled on the main server so you have to self host to use it, but self hosting Stoat is a pain because the main instance is hardcoded into the clients, so you have to edit their source code and recompile them. There are also no notification sounds for some reason.

I still use it though. Much better than having all my data sold. It would also be nice if they could add a Signal-like donation system where you donate some minuscule amount of money monthly and get a small badge to indicate your support. Something as simple as that motivates people to donate, no need for paywalling the most basic stuff like Fluxer and Discord.

Source?