How?

https://element.io/

it’s essentially a federated messenger, just like lemmy is a federated reddit.

It’s likely you can get that proprietary software working, if you want to try.

My username is on my profile!

Honestly, your usage of linux since 1999 is why I don’t trust you know what’s best for beginners. I give tons of people linux, mostly the elderly, cinnamon has been an absolutely terrible experience for them. You’re highly experienced and used to something that works for you, the best choice for beginners changes more than you do.

but what it does, it does well.

Can you not say this about fedora/bazzite?

The same can not be said about other distros in conjunction to care-free users.

The very purpose of an immutable distro is to stop carefree users from doing exactly that, until mint makes an immutable distro, it simply isn’t the best choice for beginners.

Do they not care about mixed refresh rate displays, mixed dpi displays, the security issues involved in x11, etc? I think they will prefer if those things just work. Mint doesn’t have that, sure what works works well, but that’s true for fedora/bazzite too… and more works.

i don’t trust them either but from what i have seen most don’t care

They get this benefit for free on KDE. Even if they don’t care, it’s still better for them.

this is a bit of a stretch

I don’t see how it’s a stretch, someone was posting with basically this exact problem on one of the linux forums on lemmy like, last week. I don’t feel like digging up the post but this happens sometimes.

i don’t agree on everything and maybe you’re right i still don’t get why they dropped support for kde but still support MATE

Makes absolutely no sense for a beginner distro.

but i don’t think that this is a big problem for most for now since our user base is small so there is much less malware and targeted attacks (well as long as you are not a high profile employee at a company with vast data access privileges )

Security is not as huge of a problem on linux as it is on windows for sure. But EVERY SINGLE proprietary app you use can snoop on EVERYTHING. and I do not trust proprietary apps, beginners especially will use a ton of proprietary software. Remember that we’re recommending to a beginner, not a linux evangelist who is willing to do anything to make linux/foss work for them.

i don’t understand what you mean exactly by performance when talking about a DE ( responsiveness, ram and cpu usage ? …). in terms of cpu and ram usage i’m pretty sure that kde consumes more and in terms responsiveness i would assume that kde is better but how much ( a difference between 5 s and 2 s is huge but from let’s say 80 nanosecond to 60 is just for benchmarks and won’t be noticed in real world usage)

If you use KDE on a laptop from like 2002 it will be a HORRIBLE experience, they use way too much ram, way too much rendering (with animations and whatnot), absolute cpu and gpu hogs for a machine from back then. that’s pretty much the reason xfce and lxde exist. It’ll also be real bad on cinnamon. Maybe this is better now, I haven’t tried in a while.

The only reason I see for a beginner not to choose KDE over xfce is if they have a laptop from the 32 bit era. Elsewise, KDE if you use windows, Gnome if you use macos. The development speed alone and the fact that they have proper funding means in 20 years they’ll probably still be around, cinnamon development is nearly dead by comparison, we shouldn’t be encouraging people to use significantly less supported software unless there’s a compelling reason, and for cinnamon, there really just isn’t. People won’t want to relearn everything when cinnamon breaks for them, might as well start on the most well supported stuff for all hardware.

I personally don’t use KDE, but I don’t think we should be recommending anything but KDE/Gnome to beginners without very good reason. Sure, use whatever you want, but that isn’t a valid course of action for someone who doesn’t even know where to start, and the obvious answer for where to start is KDE.

I think many people here have been linux users for so long that they forget their solution isn’t the best choice for beginners.

Yeah but there’s so many more reasons to choose kde over cinnamon, there is a massive disparity in security between the two, KDE uses wayland by default, and as a result is SIGNIFICANTLY more secure, just off the top of my head, here’s some problems with cinnamon that will not be resolved anytime soon, that have all already been resolved by this transition KDE-side:

1. Every single app can read your keyboard input without asking
2. Every single app can see what every single other app is doing without asking
3. Apps can fullscreen themselves and go over everything else, because they can control their own window placement to any degree they want, again, without asking.

and in the future the disparity will only go up, just as an example, look at the rate of development on KDE based distros vs cinnamon… cinnamon is entirely outclassed. The KDE team is massive, the cinnamon team is a few people with no real funding. ( if you don’t believe me, here are the stats for the last month cinnamon side: https://github.com/linuxmint/cinnamon/pulse/monthly vs https://github.com/KDE/plasma-desktop/pulse although you’ll note kde isn’t developed on github and that’s just a mirror. It’s not even close, cinnamon has less monthly than 1/10th of the weekly for kde. The KDE text editor alone outpaces all of cinnamon dramatically, https://github.com/KDE/kate/pulse ) The rate of code output and refinement is not even close. The level of customization you can do with KDE vs cinnamon isn’t even comparable. If you run into an issue with cinnamon, you’re SOL, whereas KDE can actually worry about your bugs, because they have so many more developers.

I have tried giving people cinnamon, it has gone disasterously, usually due to DPI problems. But I don’t think it’s a safe recommendation at all, just given the security issues. Also mixed dpi displays are extremely common, many people have 1 4k and 1 1080p screen, for example, or maybe they plug into a tv… it’s much more common than you think.

In short, i think the only reasonable recommendations for beginners in terms of desktop environments, are KDE or Gnome (if they’re mac users and are willing to learn something different), unless their hardware is TERRIBLE and old, in which case they might want lxqt or xfce, maybe.

I honestly think mint is an outdated suggestion for beginners, I think immutability is extremely important for someone who is just starting out, as well as starting on KDE since it’s by far the most developed DE that isn’t gnome and their… design decisions are unfortunate for people coming from windows.

I don’t think we should be recommending mint to beginners anymore, if mint makes an immutable, up to date KDE distro, that’ll change, but until then, I think bazzite is objectively a better starting place for beginners.

The mere fact that it generates a new system for you on update and lets you switch between and rollback automatically is enough for me to say it’s better, but it also has more up to date software, and tons of guides (fedora is one of the most popular distros, and bazzite is essentially identical except with some QoL upgrades).

How common is the story of “I was new to linux and completely broke it”? that’s not a good user experience for someone who’s just starting, it’s intimidating, scary, and I just don’t think it’s the best in the modern era. There’s something to be said about learning from these mistakes, but bazzite essentially makes these mistakes impossible.

Furthermore because of the way bazzite works, package management is completely graphical and requires essentially no intervention on the users part, flathub and immutability pair excellently for this reason.

Cinnamon (the default mint environment) doesn’t and won’t support HDR, the security/performance improvements from wayland, mixed refresh rate displays, mixed DPI displays, fractional scaling, and many other things for a very very long time if at all. I don’t understand the usecase for cinnamon tbh, xfce is great if you need performance but don’t want to make major sacrifices, lmde is great if you need A LOT of performance, cinnamon isn’t particularly performant and just a strictly worse version of kde in my eyes from the perspective of a beginner, anyway.

I have 15 years of linux experience and am willing to infinitely troubleshoot if you add me on matrix.

Mint

I honestly think mint is an outdated suggestion for beginners, I think immutability is extremely important for someone who is just starting out, as well as starting on KDE since it’s by far the most developed DE that isn’t gnome and their… design decisions are unfortunate for people coming from windows.

I don’t think we should be recommending mint to beginners anymore, if mint makes an immutable, up to date KDE distro, that’ll change, but until then, I think bazzite is objectively a better starting place for beginners.

The mere fact that it generates a new system for you on update and lets you switch between and rollback automatically is enough for me to say it’s better, but it also has more up to date software, and tons of guides (fedora is one of the most popular distros, and bazzite is essentially identical except with some QoL upgrades).

How common is the story of “I was new to linux and completely broke it”? that’s not a good user experience for someone who’s just starting, it’s intimidating, scary, and I just don’t think it’s the best in the modern era. There’s something to be said about learning from these mistakes, but bazzite essentially makes these mistakes impossible.

Furthermore because of the way bazzite works, package management is completely graphical and requires essentially no intervention on the users part, flathub and immutability pair excellently for this reason.

Cinnamon (the default mint environment) doesn’t and won’t support HDR, the security/performance improvements from wayland, mixed refresh rate displays, mixed DPI displays, fractional scaling, and many other things for a very very long time if at all. I don’t understand the usecase for cinnamon tbh, xfce is great if you need performance but don’t want to make major sacrifices, lmde is great if you need A LOT of performance, cinnamon isn’t particularly performant and just a strictly worse version of kde in my eyes from the perspective of a beginner, anyway.

I have 15 years of linux experience and am willing to infinitely troubleshoot if you add me on matrix.

I honestly think mint is an outdated suggestion for beginners, I think immutability is extremely important for someone who is just starting out, as well as starting on KDE since it’s by far the most developed DE that isn’t gnome and their… design decisions are unfortunate for people coming from windows.

I don’t think we should be recommending mint to beginners anymore, if mint makes an immutable, up to date KDE distro, that’ll change, but until then, I think bazzite is objectively a better starting place for beginners.

The mere fact that it generates a new system for you on update and lets you switch between and rollback automatically is enough for me to say it’s better, but it also has more up to date software, and tons of guides (fedora is one of the most popular distros, and bazzite is essentially identical except with some QoL upgrades).

How common is the story of “I was new to linux and completely broke it”? that’s not a good user experience for someone who’s just starting, it’s intimidating, scary, and I just don’t think it’s the best in the modern era. There’s something to be said about learning from these mistakes, but bazzite essentially makes these mistakes impossible.

Furthermore because of the way bazzite works, package management is completely graphical and requires essentially no intervention on the users part, flathub and immutability pair excellently for this reason.

Cinnamon (the default mint environment) doesn’t and won’t support HDR, the security/performance improvements from wayland, mixed refresh rate displays, mixed DPI displays, fractional scaling, and many other things for a very very long time if at all. I don’t understand the usecase for cinnamon tbh, xfce is great if you need performance but don’t want to make major sacrifices, lmde is great if you need A LOT of performance, cinnamon isn’t particularly performant and just a strictly worse version of kde in my eyes from the perspective of a beginner, anyway.

I have 15 years of linux experience and am willing to infinitely troubleshoot if you add me on matrix.

Bees are not the only native pollinators, though, plenty are extinct

honeybees are an invasive species, fun fact

unfortunately they outcompeted a lot of the native pollinators so we’re fucked without them though

Right, forgot about that transition.

you probably wouldn’t notice any difference between kde and lxde in this case.

it’s important to distinguish the distro and the desktop environment as two different things, lubuntu is just ubuntu with lxde installed.

Is there anything the distro could feasibly do to be a worse choice?

all you have to do is trick the user into installing something malicious, and running it.

then with x11 it can snoop on literally everything, sure, for a server linux is inherently more secure but as an end user i don’t think it matters much.

You can, but on windows it’s the standard way to do things, on linux it’s almost never done.

I see we are not going nowhere here, but I highly appreciate your effort to make me understand your view. Russia and China, let alone Cuba, Venezuela, Iran etc al want to develop an alternative from Android… how is it going? Only China is pulling it off, and after 5 years already and massive investment… just forking sure…

Like i’ve said repeatedly, it’s the google play store, the proprietary parts they are having trouble duplicating. Even little people can make ROMS on XDA, it’s not a big deal.

here’s an example: https://xdaforums.com/c/bliss-roms.7296/

If they cannot do the work that single devs can do, then they aren’t even trying.

Single inexperienced developers do this with regularity for fun.

Just as a remark… “cannot legally become closed source”. Do you really think the US is bound by any legality at this point?! And it is not just Trump… any President could scrap off any legality if it need be and lower courts could just complain all the want… Of the 100+ lawsuit cases Trump already has accumulated in 3 months you won’t see much progress… and recently, even the US Supreme Court already gave Presidents “Broad Immunity for Official Acts” and “Absolute Immunity for Core Powers” so good luck for upholding GPL if an administration wants to force software out of it.

There’s no precedent for this and it seems like baseless paranoia. Again, fedora’s whole selling point is essentially the GPL, getting rid of it would make it completely worthless, none of the KDE devs would be down for this, none of the linux kernel devs would be down for this, all they’d have is DNF… Also, if this happened, redhat having marketshare would be the least of our worries. It really wouldn’t even matter.

here’s a full list of their projects: https://next.redhat.com/projects-full/

do you even use any of those?

Hell, they hardly even have DNF since they’re trying to switch to flatpak, soon they won’t even be in control of most of packaging, just the default suite of apps. This is an incredibly bad move if they’re ever going to do what you’re claiming, it’s essentially irreversible.

None of the value proposition of fedora is in the actual software they make, it’s the distribution of that software that’s valuable, they package it well, but they don’t make it themselves… KDE will not go with redhat, they’re separate orgs, as is linux, as is systemd, even coreutils aren’t made by them.

You seem to be under the impression that fedora is entirely made by redhat, this is completely false, it’s just a bunch of things other people make they’ve bundled together. Redhat does not and cannot have much power over this unless they start building massive amounts of infrastructure from scratch, which they won’t be able to justify to investors because it will, again, be entirely against their business model.

The moment fedora becomes proprietary, people will fork, switch, and never think about them again. Even if they do become proprietary through some magic, we’ll still have all the previous versions to work with, they’ll have to offer some features to make switching to the proprietary version worthwhile, and given what KDE already offers, i can’t even imagine what that would be.

They honestly probably don’t even need to fork… dnf isn’t even that good of a package manager.

True for wayland, not true at all for x11

US has overwhelmingly all the developers of Fedora. If Fedora wins over all other linux based distros (and at this time it could be easily do in a near future), developers in other countries will move on into other projects (or move to the US). If the US, once Fedora is so clear dominant and Debian and Arch ceased to exists down the road, the US will find it compelling to close source Fedora and leave the rest of the world with a forked version but unable to develop for the time being since there is no Linux experts around left.

this isn’t even possible, most linux distros are passion projects, even the ones that aren’t don’t need much funding. Debian will never go away, arch will never go away, so that simply can’t happen unless they’re militaristically destroyed. You say this is not far fetched, but i’m afraid I completely disagree, that doesn’t even sound remotely possible. Fedora doesn’t even do that much, they just package together a bunch of other things that are developed completely independently of them (they don’t even make their own kernel, that’s like 90% of the work!)

fedora cannot legally become closed source, most of it is GPL licensed. Lookup “copyleft”, this is why android isn’t already proprietary.

If Firefox closes, the dudes in librewolf will survive for a few months (I’m in Librewolf), that is it; none of them are capable of keeping developing Gecko (the engine of Firefox). Imagine that Google close sources Android, no one in the world (besides Huawei) could keep develop it competitively for at least a decade!

This isn’t true, there are many open source android projects could easily keep things going. The only reason huawei does all that is because of the proprietary parts, this doesn’t exist as a problem in linux, and cannot be created as one. Firefox would still be developed without mozilla, just significantly slower. Lookup phones with microg, they have no such issues keeping things going. Browsers are a special case that require a ton of resources to keep secure, OS’s, not so much.

Also, google cannot legally close source android, that’s the point of the GPL.

Even then what you’re saying is “these aren’t viable open source projects without a lot of funding” and android absolutely is, firefox MIGHT be.

Look at this… SWIFT (an interbanking payment system) , when US, in spite being European, dominates it completely, Russia and China has been for half a decade create and alternative… it is not a mayor technically difficult platform to replicate, but it is proven very hard… relying on it for decades had left every country at its merci and now that most of the world wants an alternative still could not come up with a viable alternative. Remember also when France/EU wanted to create a payment system with Iran… well, never came to fruition. Haven relying in the US for decades left Europe powerless for these innovations. The same could happen with Fedora if we start adopting it in mass.

none of these concerns resemble this situation.

I know they aren’t limited to linux, but can you give me an example of a situation where this matters?

All of the situations I can think of are remedied by the fact that linux is still GPL’d